Deutschland

Are you here because you favor an improvement in choice of voting system that prevails in the country where you live? If so, what do you think is inadequate about the current choice? Are the people in control of the government in your country?

You say that the case of Germany sounds like a conspiracy to you. What do you suppose the conspirators are trading among themselves?

Hi Jack, I am indeed from Germany. And no I am not here because I want to improve the German voting system. There are some minor things which I believe could be changed. All in all, it seems like a very good and representative system though.

Where do you even get the idea from that Germans are not in control of their government, at least less than in other representative democracies?

And yes this, "Germans need to take back the control of the government" sounds eerily similar to talking points of right wing politicians.

Jack Waugh

The officials in the government of Germany obey the demands of the ruling class from the United States of America (where I live) to stop buying methane from Russia. These officials impose low indoor temperatures on the people, which I doubt whether the people would prefer, by and large. The world political question is of whether the unipolar world will continue or a multipolar world will arise to take the place of the unipolar world (after, of course, the larger and more immediate world political question, of whether the human species shall survive much longer in the face of the threats of nuclear war, environmental degradation, resource depletion, overconsumption, and overpopulation).

@jack-waugh oh lol you are one of those guys. If this the level of discourse in a voting theory forum, then I hope the rest is not like you

Jack Waugh

If the level of discourse were what you wish it to be, what explanation do you suppose people from other countries than Deutschland would give for why they are interested in this subject? Do you think they judge that their countries fall short when it comes to representing the needs and political opinions of their publics by and large?

rob

@spelunker For better or worse, we're not all like @Jack-Waugh. There's a variety here. I personally don't agree with bringing in political views (such as on Europeon countries buying methane, etc), since I think that is destructive to discussing voting theory and just generally appearing unbiased while avoiding unnecessary conflict. But Jack will be Jack.

If you are actually interested in voting theory and voting methods, feel free to browse the conversations, this is probably the best starting point (its been a bit slow the last few weeks but it picks up): https://www.votingtheory.org/forum/recent

Just curious, how did you find the forum?

Jack Waugh

Whatever you may say about one participant or another in this forum, the question remains unanswered -- what political improvements can a country like the US achieve via voting-system change? [edited]

Jack Waugh

This winter (2002-2003), how many of the people living in Germany shall freeze to death, compared to the number of a typical winter of the recent past?

Germans will be spending on how much on methane shipped from the US this winter? How much would they normally spend on that source?

Do German citizens agree with their government's policies in regard to the above two measures?

Are these questions concrete enough?

Are they disqualified on the grounds of who asks them?

Are they valid regardless of who asks them?

rob

@jack-waugh said in Deutschland:

This winter (2002-2003), how many of the people living in Germany shall freeze to death, compared to the number of a typical winter of the recent past?

Germans will be spending on how much on methane shipped from the US this winter? How much would they normally spend on that source?

Do German citizens agree with their government's policies in regard to the above two measures?

Are these questions concrete enough?

Are they disqualified on the grounds of who asks them?

Are they valid regardless of who asks them?

None of this has to do with voting theory and bringing them up as you did clearly drove away a newcomer to the forum. (who unsurprisingly said "if this the level of discourse in a voting theory forum, then I hope the rest is not like you") Do you not understand why it got that response?

I think it's perfectly fine to state a view on your favorite voting methods and the like. It's fine to state a "pro-democracy," anti-authoritarian point of view, and to be against toxic politics. Those are issues that are perfectly appropriate to bring up and state a position on.

What you are doing is something else. It's actually bringing in that toxicity. This isn't a "political rants" forum. I don't know where others stand on it, but if it was up to me we'd have moderators who'd remove that stuff before it drives even more people away.

cfrank

@rob yes, I do think it's easy to veer into political ideology territory, which is just a small step away, and it should be avoided or approached very cautiously. I do think sometimes an evaluation of the effects that a voting system might have on the quality of representation or government processes is valid, but should be done without asking loaded or aggressive questions, and probably there are other general policies in that regard that we should discuss in this forum. I may be guilty of this kind of rhetoric myself, I have no catalog of past transgressions to exhibit but I won't pretend or claim otherwise. It isn't easy to avoid making ideologically oriented judgments even without realizing. In any case moving forward I personally intend to avoid it, and I think we all should probably do the same and let mistakes be recognized. There are plenty of issues that are less controversial to examine here.

@Jack-Waugh, in my opinion (just having read through this now, and not to scold you) it does seem to me like your implicit claim would warrant more evidence. Anyway, I'll throw my cents in about what may be answers to your original questions. Even if the people of Germany hypothetically were not in charge of their government, it seems like a non-sequitur to conclude therefore that PR and voting rights would be either politically significant or a waste of time. Let's put the topic of Germany entirely aside: PR is used in 40/43 of the European nations.

Jack Waugh

@rob Moving the metadiscussion to https://www.votingtheory.org/forum/topic/303/the-metadiscussion because it doesn't directly have to do with the case of Germany today.

SaraWolk

Hi all,
Sorry for the delay, but this thread was recently brought up again as an example so I'd like to post a comment addressing the Code of Conduct issues raised.

Making the forum welcoming for new (and old) people is important. To that aim, we do have a code of conduct that can be helpful.

It includes this: "Please make an effort to stay on topic and to not waste people's time. Keep in mind that this is a volunteer-driven project, and that time contributed by participants and moderators is appreciated and valued. Try to keep all discussions relevant to voting theory and reform efforts. Avoid sweeping generalizations or assumptions."